'...scientists working in South Africa made an exciting announcement [in 2015]: They had discovered a new species of human ancestor. [....] One of the most exciting aspects of the naledi discovery was that the skeletons appear to have been deposited in a burial chamber, suggesting the species engaged in rituals and even symbolic thought. That raises a whole host of scientific and anthropological questions: [....]
But the discovery of a relatively advanced human ancestor also raises theological questions, particularly for Christians who believe that a person must believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ in order to receive eternal life in Heaven. It may sound silly to apply that standard to primitive species hovering millions of years ago between animal and human, but it’s an important question if you believe in the eternal soul...'
@frankiesaxx @jd around 1970s Catholics finally accepted that science and religion *can* coexist (there is a whole Science Uni in the Vatican which does space research etc) and non human creatures could enter Heaven (there was lack of agreement as to whether they had souls). But if you told a cat they weren't allowed I they would only think "screw you and your religion, I will go to Buddhist/Muslim/Hindu heaven instead, where there are less closed doors and weather is better 😸
@frankiesaxx @jd TBH most Catholics (other than traditionalists found in USA and very occasionally in DE/CH/AT/LI) *stopped* worrying about this long before either or us were born - I have no idea what the situation is for other denominations.
BTW it is perfectly acceptable to cosplay Jesus in some European countries as part of Easter celebrations (you do actually have to haul a cross but at least don't get actually nailed to it..)
Eh. Catholics had the impending crisis of their systematic abuse of women and children looming and the secular social shift toward civil rights and equality. They had more important things to worry about than whether cats go to heaven, like if gay people are abominations and exactly how sinful and corrupting vaginas are. (Too sinful and corrupting for women to be religious leaders.)
@frankiesaxx @jd these atttitudes were exactly what was being challened at Vatican II (1967) and are *finally* slowly falling by the wayside particularly in Northern Europe; especially as less native European people become religious nowadays and Islam has become a more major player amongst faith groups.
Only last year BE changed the unique Flemish version of their Weesgegroet (Hail Mary) that bowdlerised the Dutch word "schoot" (often mistranslated as "lap" but means the womb)
We're not much Catholic in Northern Europe. It's predominantly Lutheran, so Catholic attitudes aren't much challenged. Also the current pope is a vile hypocrite who talks social justice out the front while maintaining the status quo, even refrocking convicted child molestors who were expelled by his predecessor. Can't listen to the man talk about how other countries should respect native people w/o remembering he canonized Junipero Serra over their objections.
the gender equality of Lutheranism is modern though, Luther himself wasn't known for supporting rights of women!
I'd heard of a priest being laicised who *hadn't* previously (but should have) and issues with safeguarding (the person in charge now sacked) but not of any criminals being readmitted. Popes aren't actually totally infallible!
And I doubt an influx of Islam will do anything to engender progressive attitudes. Competing religions in the same territory just gives them an excuse to play holy war with each other. The fundamentalists get all fired up and it's fun and games, except for the bystanders who get blown up or mowed down.
@frankiesaxx @jd that is a big problem. I have at least heard discussions on Radio Maria as well as attempts in NL and DE to *prevent* Christianity being co-opted by the European hard right to recruit disaffected youths to fight against Islam (and create a crusade on our own doorsteps). Although in my town (#Ipswich) a surprising number of faiths co-exist peacefully from Muslims to New Age/Pagans (its not easy, they have regular planning meetings with cops etc in case anything did kick off)
Individual people believing stuff usually get on okay as long as they can all agree that they respect other people's right to believe and live differently. But that requires that they're moderates.
I had an American fundamentalist tell me once that respecting beliefs different than her own is against her religion.
@frankiesaxx @jd religious fundamentalism is now discouraged if not actually illegal in the UK (Suffolk actually suffered badly from it in previous centuries) although our society has struggled to cope with monitoring a religion where many of its adherents use languages other than English and live in communities historically suspicious of conventional authorities..
Really there shouldn't be tensions but it comes down to power and control. Religion's is a wrapper for an archaic system of proto-government/science/philosophy with a hefty dose of woo because when we made it up we were fucking savages who thought gods threw lightning bolts. And its a good 600 years past its sell by date.
No regime gives up power willingly. As long as we have religion we're gonna have identitarian religious groups vying for political control.
@frankiesaxx @jd this is true, and many moderate religious folk fully admit faith cannot be explained in the same rational way as science (and are aware of the history/politics) although there also seems to be a trend amongst a minority of atheists to create power structures of their own and to avoid "social justice norms". Not all are like that, someone on here from explained how atheists do not have to give up their *humanity*
@frankiesaxx @jd in England religion was (and indeed still is) used to bolster public services (for instance all the churches mosques and temples are heavily involved in looking after the homeless, they also have street pastors to defuse situations with drunken people in town. This is mostly because Brits would rather either believe in people up in the sky or blame immigrants than pay taxes for these services..
Except it turned out it wasn't charity, they were billing the city for it. So we were paying for it with our taxes anyway. And when the city stopped footing the bill, all that "charity" dried up.
It's weird that people try and duplicate identitarian religious politics with atheism - though I think that's largely a product of existing in a society where religion is privileged. Like the Satanic Temple in the US, which exists specifically to demand the same legal rights accorded to theist religions.
Polls say most of Sweden is pretty atheist/agnostic so this clearly is not a good way to promote an anti-social equality agenda.
@frankiesaxx @jd it appears to be a backlash against Christian social teaching instructing believers to put social care (for the poor, mothers etc) *before* capitalism. This is something built in to many Northern European nations (whether or not religion is still a factor) and remains even amongst centre right parties (CSU/CDU in DE for instance) but appears to be irrationally loathed by many Americans hence why they thought the Pope was "communist"...
Haha. Francis isn't a communist. He talks a good game about economic equality in other states from a palace in Rome but I don't see him liquidating Catholic assets to help the poor. My observation of much Catholic "charity" is that it's degrading and abusive - there's a fetish around poverty and suffering.
@frankiesaxx @jd recently they are housing Muslim refugees from Syria in various bits of the Vatican (last time I looked a lot of the Vaticans assets and those of the church in DE are in property, most of which is occupied). But it wasn't even that which got Francis accused of communism, it was simply suggesting USA should adopt a more positive attitude to environmental regulations..
Caritas and Cafod (in UK and DE at least) seem to be more pragmatic and now advertise themselves as multi faith..
It's hard to tell whether cultural values are a result of foreign religious influence or whether the religion is adapted by the values of the culture. I'd say in general cultural transfer goes both ways, but also Nordic culture has a streak of cultural opportunism. One of my history books talks about the acquisition of technology - specifically literate monks - as one of the motives for Christianizing.
@frankiesaxx @jd its definitely a combination of both. I was reading recently about the history of Lutheranism and was surprised to learn that in Nordic countries not only was the role of Censor Librorum retained from Catholicism, but was actually expanded into a central government role that to cover all publishing of religious (and maybe other) books the general public may have had access to!
Indeed that BBC Receiving station I mentioned a few months ago was part funded by GCHQ/MI6 to monitor DR and Sveriges Radio on VHF during the Cold War as recenly as 1980s as Thatcho thought they might be potential Soviet sympathisers!
@frankiesaxx @jd this attitude tends to be more American nowadays -although the Church of England was more Protestant in previous times, it now claims to be a "media via" betweeen Catholicism and Protestantism (it also runs all the inter-faith groups, and has a lot of input even into secular education, as in UK church and state are not totally separated!)
I recall a few years back OUTRAGE among some American Lutherans because their sect is barred from preaching in Swedish Lutheran churches because they have beliefs (mostly about women and gay people) antithetical to Swedish Lutheranism.
And of course the American Evangelical Lutherans wanted to use the pulpit in Sweden to spread their dogma.
They claim abortion is never a medically justified action, that abortion psychologically harms women, that same sex relationships are less than diff sex ones, that it's food for LGB people to never have relationships etc.
@ebel @frankiesaxx @jd I once (out of curiosity) watched an "adult relationships education TV series" on ETWN Deutschland from a Catholic university in Austria. This started with Professor pointing to a flipchart of pairs of various mammals and explaining the basics (including suggesting a human couple should raise 10-20(!) kids), and every time anything more explicit was mentioned there was a fit of coughing from some old folks in the front. Even Father Ted couldn't match that for comedy..
I actually stumbled across the Austrian Catholic youth advice site (whilst trying to find the Order of Mass in Austrian German) and although it doesn't encourage abortion, it was a lot more rationally written than similar sites in English..
The Catholic church also has a stranglehold on public policy regarding women's health in South America, and they use South America as a dumping ground for priests accused of sexual abuse in North America.
out of the two PL worries me more as I think the country is otherwise stable and doing OK economically which limits the desire for change.
For faith(s) to exist peacefully the country itself should first have a suitable level of freedom (as with NL,DE, UK etc)
@frankiesaxx @jd @ebel I haven't, but I am well aware of the rise of Islamic extremism in London and the SE as it has been going on since early 1990s, was ignored by govt of the time and rife in my Uni (ironically I was expelled from the same place Jihadi John graduated from...).
This is interlinked to an extent with another issue of countries that are supposedly secular but encourage faith in family groups to control younger people (rebelling against parents leads some further into extremism)
Among the more interesting topics he discusses how encouraging religious identitarian groups is used as tool by groups who want political power - who might promise to deliver the "Muslim vote" to certain candidates - or alternately stop them voting by telling them secular government seeks to usurp God's authority.
@frankiesaxx @jd @ebel as recently as 2006 a Catholic priest in Glastonbury had to act as peacemaker/ negotiator with police after some youths at a Christian youth festival, got drunk and bust in all the windows of a shop selling pagan stuff (this shocked me even more than living through the Troubles as it was so unusual for that region..)
@frankiesaxx @ebel @jd and that gets especially difficult in countries which lack state funded healthcare and social care which then gets provided (and funded) by faith groups... (NL once had separate Catholic and Protestant hospitals, which only merged just before WWII and separate trade unions well into the 1950s/60s...)
@vfrmedia @frankiesaxx @jd that's like Ireland now. The Irish state funds religious run and owned hospitals and schools, look at recent controversy over the state's plan to give a new €300m maternality hospital to an order of nuns.
The Irish state seems to not want to run or own things. This is what I mean about non financial ways to support religions
@ebel @frankiesaxx @jd in England we have senior care homes run (partly) by nuns but less common as the sisters themselves are ageing and younger ones (if not cloistered) prefer to teach in schools - but the state only part funds senior care and does not invest directly.
State schools get grants/funding whether or not faith based (is a wide selection in this town both religious and secular)
It surprises me a modern EU country still does this for maternity care which is a core requirement..
@ebel @frankiesaxx @jd this applies to some extent to all healthcare workers in mainland UK (pharmacists can refuse the morning after pill) - but there is also a requirement to provide services in emergency (if they are the only one on duty for instance) and sufficient services to be available in all regions for all ages (cradle to grave healthcare) .
Does Ireland not have a regulator like CQC that oversees this (or is it just less effective?)
Of course being an Amish truck driver, and claiming you can't actually do your job because your religion, but you should be able to get paid for it anyway, and people who expected you to actually do your job and deliver their goods are just out of luck, would never fucking fly
But it's totally acceptable when it comes to denying women health care.
@frankiesaxx @jd @ebel I don't think UK midwives perform abortions and have less involvement in wider family planning (unlike NL which seems to do the same as SE) but if this was a part of the job role it would surely have to be clearly explained in basic training (at which point she could just as easily decided to work elsewhere in healthcare as skils are often transferrable)
They're perfectly capable, and it helps reduce load in other areas of medical services. We have a lot of shortages in health care. (We're hoping some of our nurses especially will come home from Britain!)
@frankiesaxx @jd @ebel we've got a shortage of midwives (and currently a slightly higher birth rate than most of Northern Europe) and most of our nurses come from PH and IN (not even that British folk don't want to study nursing, but this area doesn't have as many native young people as London or Manchester to start with!)
@frankiesaxx @ebel @jd unfortunately this doesn't surprise me as I've seen info about links between the fundamentalist Protestant Christians of USA and some in Europe who feel that Lutheranism has become "too liberal" (independently from an old skool anarchist in a Scandinavian country and even other Christian media!)
@vfrmedia @jd @ebel Definitely some factions. Feathers flew when Antje Jackelén (the current lady Archbishop of Uppsala) said the point of the virgin birth was as a mythological device, not literal biological fact.
I recall some upset when another member of the Church of Sweden clergy said the resurrection could be considered a metaphor. I want to say it was a lady minister in Gothenburg, but Google isn't helping me verify my memory.
(This is prob. why they get mad about ladies being clergy.)
@frankiesaxx @ebel @jd yet when male clergy in the Church of England (including an Archbishop) said similar things in the 1980s (there was only a relatively minor kerfuffle amongst the conservative media, although the Archbishop did end up on the satirical puppet show of the era Spitting Image along with the "Atheist Tabernacle Choir" (pops up on youtube but tends to get pulled for copyright soon afterwards)
The interesting thing is, when taking issue, conservatives and fundamentalists claim to be speaking for the overwhelming majority of Christians but last I saw, something like 25% of Christians don't believe in the resurrection and 40% think there are parts of the story that shouldn't be taken literally.
He used to turn up on Spitting image quite a bit (often along with Pope St John Paul and God the Father) whenever they needed a bishop for a religious sketch (the puppets weren't cheap to make so it made sense to re-use them as often as possible).
@frankiesaxx @ebel @jd I think its recently been made illegal *not* to dispense in emergency nor provide alternatives - the only reference I can find to this happening recently is an undated report from Daily Mail.
It was once a problem in pharmacies run within supermarkets especially if US-owned (not so much independent ones.
There's a difference between labor action to remedy problems with workplace safety, pay, etc. and choosing to seek employment that you can reasonably be expected to know entails duties that go against your moral principles and then expecting to be exempted from performing those duties at the expense of other people's safety and well being.
They would likely get pulled up for corrupt behaviour (some have been)- even though most of us might perhaps be more likely to support this cop than they would a religious person, unless there is an official tolerance policy in the cop still has failed in their duty to enforce the law.
@frankiesaxx @jd @ebel its not always physically possible to catch everyone but even in my old town discretionary stuff was authorised at senior level; the officer who did this is now head of a national Police unit and has advocated drugs decrim nationally.
But someone who doesn't want to enforce contentious laws such as some drugs control or restricting protests shouldn't become a copper in the first place - its not as if folk are conscripted into it (like once happened in medieval Europe!)
That said, discretionary policing should be about best outcomes and that's often a judgment call and can be controversial too.
@vfrmedia @frankiesaxx @jd Yes, Irish law allows pharmacists to refuse to provide contraception or the morning after pill (which is legal as of a few years ago). I'm not sure how often it happens. There was a rape victim who was refused in 3 places in Dublin, and had to travel to UK for an abortion. After speaking in the media over it, a neo nazi pro life group (youth Defence) protested outside her workplace until she was fired.
This is a big point, because after Savita died in Ireland, anti-choice groups claimed "Ireland was the safest place/one of the safest places to have a baby" (i.e. stop complaining about our laws). And the UN source showed Ireland pretty good. (initially they claimed IE was #1, but it was actually in top 10).
@jd @frankiesaxx @vfrmedia *However* those stats weren't comparing like with like. Ireland's methodology for recording a death as maternal was pretty strick, and many deaths didn't count (i.e. there was, officially only one the year Savita died (i.e. Savita herself)). Hence Ireland looked better than (say) the UK. But it was apples & oranges.
There was an report which finished and showed the figures were much higher than previously reported.
"Ireland's so safe" has entered pop knowledge now though. :(
@ebel @frankiesaxx @jd ironically the couple involved were both working in healthcare trhemselves! I just looked at the reports and they mention other basic failings were noticed in the care (such as insufficient/lacking hourly checks, miscommunications) which would be bad for *any* mother to be (or patients in general) on top of issues with domestic law. Savitas husband left Ireland in 2014 for USA, following a transfer from his employer (+some threats to his safety)
@vfrmedia @frankiesaxx I thought Praveen worked as an engineer? Be careful about "Savita died because of missed checks only". Yes there was other failings, but many anti-abortion groups claim that that was the only problem (i.e. "stop talking about IE's abortion law!")
The threats to his safety just show how an Irish family would probably have been unwilling to do what he did.
The legal issues were mentioned in the report (which seems to have brought publicity on other incidents) and at least in 2013 Irish domestic law was changed to clarify matters (it still very restrictive by global standards, and dependent that communication channels between midwifes and obstetricians and sufficient resources exist and no one is being deliberately obstructive..
@vfrmedia @jd @ebel
It doesn't seem like there's a lot of protection for doctors making proactive decisions even in an emergency. It's something like 10 or 15 years in prison if they're found guilty of performing an unnecessary abortion isn't it? Like "destruction of unborn persons" or something? And can't the hospital they work for be found guilty also?
I suspect the case a few years back only got the attention because the woman who died wasn't Irish.
@frankiesaxx @ebel @jd the offence (which exists in UK law too) is "child destruction" and was originally intended to prosecute dangerous back street abortionists. The law can only be changed by the Irish people and govt themselves as subsidiarity (in EU context) also means an EU law cannot overrule a domestic law that is *stronger*, even if its non compliant with the human rights legislation.
On another note it is possible (but rare) for men to be midwives here since the 1970s (its not uncommon but does happen), the woman can refuse and insist on a female midwife most do not..
@vfrmedia @frankiesaxx @jd The law in Ireland before 2014 were the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act (sec58&59), backed up a 1983 constiutional change (aka 8th Amendment). The penalty was a life time of penal servitude. The law was designed to make all abortion illegal. Now, it's a 14 yr prison sentance for any abortion unless it's to save the life.
The ECHR is different, and toothless, and is the "court of moral victories". (And in the AB&C v Ireland case found that there was no right to an abortion in EU law).
Plus there is the Maastrical Protocol, which Ireland got which says "EU law will never override Irish anti-abortion law! :(
@ebel @frankiesaxx @jd the same happened in Germany but the end result was after some debate the bishops have officially authorise any Catholic pharmacist to prescribe at least one kind of morning after pill since 2013 (there are lots of other things that happen in DE including communion for divorced, greater LGBT tolerance, depends on area but some Pfarrers push it pretty much as far as they can without causing an actual schism..)
@vfrmedia @frankiesaxx @jd AFAIK that's why some in the Catholic Church were trying to have those issues (communion for divorcees etc) decided at a Bishop level, not globally. Because they knew they could never get the whole church to change, and didn't want to be too obviously out of touch in W Europe.
To me, that's hypocrisy. Catholicism is against divorce.
@ebel @frankiesaxx @jd this has already happened in some bits of DE and NL- it can be done without causing a schism via a concept known as subsidiarity which gives bishops some autonomy from the Vatican (the concept also exists with regard to EU law, it was always mentioned in news reports in the late 1990s)
@vfrmedia @frankiesaxx @jd Yes, the Church of Ireland (the main non Catholic religion) ran lauderies, but they aren't in favour of most of the hardline Catholic social issues, and often opposed to the issue of the day (eg against the 8th amendment at the time, they are OK with contraception and divorce, and they didn't campaign either way on the same sex marriage referendum)
@vfrmedia @frankiesaxx @jd I'm not sure how liberal the CoI is in general... They tend to be pretty small and not very influential. It could just be that the RCC church is so conservative. Divorce was illegal in Ireland till '96, so anyone pro divorce legalisation was liberal. In UK that's sort of a settled issue...
@vfrmedia @jd @frankiesaxx I don't think Irish Catholicism has a lot of influence from the USA. It's more just general Catholicism being very strong. US groups do donate a lot of money (illegally) to support their campaigns (like trying to keep Ireland "abortion free"), but money isn't everything in Ireland. The Catholic groups get a lot of support from the Irish establishment.
@ebel @jd @frankiesaxx I remember USA funding both sides of the Troubles for many years- although even in mainland UK we currently have the issue of some tax revenues on womens sanitary products (which shouldn't exist anyway) being openly donated to pro-life activist groups (and a Christian Prime Minister in a coalition with another highly religious party..)
christians do not have a monopoly on spiritual truth. the true range of our window into "the unseen" could never be contained by a human organization.
no one really knows what's beyond death. it's part of the "curriculum" we struggle with during our lives.
just another example of how religion divides people.
also, i would change "silly" to "ignorant" in terms of applying christian standards to people living long before jesus when all you have is hammer, everything looks like a nail.