@jd it's not like it's 2006 and these trolls are some brand new thing that no one understands; wtf is patreon even doing listening to them at all

@jd these are people who organize on sites delisted from google for hosting child porn; they should not be seen as this credible by organizations like patreon, wtf is going on

@jd techbros tend to be drawn to modern-day fascism is what's happening... it's by design. no one is ignorant, especially not patreon.

@ejworthing is there a better link? it says ' This video does not exist.'

@jd

Sorry. Try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmcK6GvgVPs

^^^ re: #Patreon
@ejworthing He also says that IDG promoted the idea of putting concrete on railroad tracks. I don't know if it is true, but if so then, yes, this is a serious problem, not just 'free speech'

thanks for adding this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmcK6GvgVPs
I did not have the time to watch until now

@jd

As of yesterday, IGD had at least one article online boasting of having poured concrete on train tracks in Washington state.

@ejworthing @jd What is a good reason not to call this terrorism?

@jd @ejworthing It's quite sad how much of the original sympathy I had for the "radical left" has completely evaporated in the last two years.

@pony @ejworthing its a shitty time to be a Lefty these days. and then I look at the 'other side' and I despair even more.

@jd @ejworthing I mean, I always thought there is a need for a radical actions and they are quite justified, but my feeling is that they are now just fast tracking all the "red" totalitarian regimes.

@pony @jd

I disapprove of putting concrete on train tracks, but I prefer to reserve the word "terrorism" for intentional violence against persons.

In the article (which I prefer not to link to), IGD says that they marked the location of the concrete clearly. The goal was to stop trains, not to derail a train.

@ejworthing @jd Yeah, I guess 'sabotage' would be somewhat more appropriate, but its entire purpose is to demoralize and instill fear, it's not very effective on itself, causes just small disruption. So, I'm leaning towards terrorism here, somewhat.

@ejworthing @pony I noticed that, and it is mentioned in the video, as well. But if the train rolls over the concrete then the concrete pourers are not responsible?? They still are, morally and legally, in my opinion.

Why not do what these people did instead?...

'Meet the Two Catholic Workers Who Secretly Sabotaged the Dakota Access Pipeline to Halt Construction' – Democracy Now
https://youtu.be/p-Dip9svgz8

@ejworthing @pony @jd
stopping a train can have many reasons.
In any case it's about to disrupt the routine daylife where the train maybe carries weapons which get then sended to saudi arabia to weaponize terror groups destabilising society.

Stoping a train is like a wake up call.
It's not to harm but to raise awarness about an issue.

@jd @pony @ejworthing

Concrete is used so that once the train is stoped it takes much longer until they can continue.

ppl stop trains with signs or even their own bodies.

I believe that it's a strategy which should be used in some cases.

...for example when jews in germany got deported. Just stop that fucking train doesn't matter how and free as much as possible.

@ejworthing @pony @jd
if concrete can safe lives, we all should be in solidarity with those having enough courage to do it.
(I'm not refering to the promoted action by IGD, that was all more a general talk, motivated by reading 'anti-concrete' sentence ;-p)

@pony @ejworthing @jd both sabotaging train tracks *and* interfering with maritime search/rescue operations *are* terrorism, or at least highly illegal in any nation.

All Patreon really had to do was be honest and say "we won't allow our platform to be used for funding activities that are illegal in any country", like many other services of this nature have done.

After all I very much doubt you could set up a patreon to grow cannabis (even in places where it may be decriminalised..)

@vfrmedia @ejworthing @jd Honestly, if you are ready to mess with the train safety equipment and sabotage the tracks, I just think you must be mentally prepared for an eventual injuries or even death it may cause, and obviously consider it justifiable.

Obviously, whatever the alt-right is doing in the Mediterranean is on a completely different level of fucked up. There, I'd probably go for a 'war crime', tbh. But such strong terms aren't great for talking, I guess.

@pony @jd

I agree with both of you about the ethical point. I prefer to use the word "terrorism" for a narrow range of actions. Not all bad and dangerous actions count as terrorism, in my book.

@pony @ejworthing @jd in UK we have a long running problem with bored youths deliberately putting objects on railway lines for "fun" (rather than any political reasons), I guess it happens everywhere there are trains.

Track staff/transport police are taught to look out for it so actual risks are reduced - but its still an unwanted extra burden on society especially when the world is becoming less stable to start with..

@vfrmedia @ejworthing @jd Yeah, people put stuff on the tracks all the time, even throw things at trains. It's pretty shitty. It also comes nowhere near in what is caused by negligent and underfunded maintenance. But if someone knows how to handle the track equipment to indicate an occupied block, they know what they are playing with. Not a bunch of teenagers putting a rock on the tracks. I don't really like this.

@pony @ejworthing @jd I've not readfull details of this incident but if suggestion is that an obstruction has been placed and *then* the signalling altered to defeat safety measures that really is more fucked up (also suggests involvement of disgruntled (ex?)-railway workers.

Even in Europe disaffected/bored (but not openly malicious) workers are a real risk (like the lad in Bayern who got distracted by his mobile game and allowed a major collision to happen).

@vfrmedia @ejworthing @jd No, they say they messed with it in order to prevent train entering the sabotaged section. It is meant to detect a train there, not a concrete block.

Railway worker, well, I never been one in my life, but I think I know enough to pull such a trick myself (and understand how and why). :)

@pony
@ejworthing @jd

Thats marginally better although but (thinking as a pragmatic engineer) IMO disrupting train networks or other infrastructure in peacetime still doesn't seem that justifiable (even if its part/fully privatised its still a "common good", we all make use of items brought in on container trains or travel on them ourselves.

Same applies to eco-activists trying to shut operational power stations - if this happens much *more* resources are used keeping the lights on!

@vfrmedia @pony @ejworthing @jd I don't see how reprinting a statement from anarchos after an action is itself an act of terrorism, constitutes illegal activity, or would set up Patreon to some kind of legal liability.

Even if you were to jump to the level of calling it incitement (somehow), that requires you to make a determination under Brandenburg v. Ohio. sooooooooo

@Ratttz @pony @ejworthing @jd the reach of patreon isn't (currently) limited to the USA.

Other laws apply in other countries (more an issue with far right activists in Med as thats obviously leading to actions outside USA!)

Although the impression I get is Patreon is more scared of losing its market in foreign countries (due to domestic anti terrorism legislation) than the actual rule or law or freedom or anything else,

@vfrmedia @pony @ejworthing @jd

I don't super understand how Patreon would be beholden to those country's laws if they aren't hosted there, but I can understand corporate decisions to avoid conflict.

Those decisions, however reasonable, still nevertheless have political and ideological content, which is the basis of criticisms leveled at Patreon.

Those criticisms are probably about as effective as screaming into the void, and are likely to change exactly nothing, but they're not without reason.

@Ratttz @vfrmedia @ejworthing @jd Revolution may be televised, but will not be funded on Patreon :D

@Ratttz @pony @ejworthing @jd

Patreon is a classed as financial service and in many countries will come under a great deal more scrutiny than websites only sharing discourse or cat videos or anything else.

This predates the Internet and (often genuine) concerns over funding of terrorism; for instance USA activists funded *both* sides of the UK Christian civil war in Northern Ireland that raged for a great deal of my lifetime with deaths and injuries on both sides.

@vfrmedia @pony @ejworthing @jd Well, to clarify, those regulations are in place to stop the funding of terrorists and criminals by private individuals.

Coca-Cola didn't get its bank accounts frozen for funding the assassination of Colombian union leaders, as an example.

@Ratttz @vfrmedia @pony @ejworthing

Do not forget what happened when Wikileaks depended on PayPal

@jd @Ratttz @pony @ejworthing

and even before the political brouhaha all the folk who were selling smartdrugs/nootropics (not even hard drugs) online - a legal grey area but *not* a crime but as soon as a few countries regulators complained Paypal walked away from this market (which was worth a fair few €/£/$)

@Ratttz @pony @ejworthing @jd exactly, and Patreon is a funding platform that appears to be pitched at private individuals to fund projects that they personally believe in.

Big businesses will always use other less obvious methods of getting their way - not always with violence but ironically also by exploiting the "gig economy" culture (happens a lot in the so-called "creative industries").

@Ratttz @vfrmedia @pony @ejworthing

re: 'don't super understand how Patreon would be beholden to those country's laws if they aren't hosted there'

Easy in the case of Patreon, regulate and punish local banks for working them.

@Ratttz @vfrmedia @pony @jd

I don't think Patreon's decision was motivated by fear of legal liability. At least, I don't think it's obvious.

Patreon decided to have community guidelines that exclude some activities that are legal. For instance, encouraging people to infringe copyrights, without actually doing it or coordinating it, is legal in the U.S. But it violates Patreon's community guidelines.

@Ratttz @vfrmedia @pony @jd

We on Mastodon (at least the main instances and instances that federate with it) are OK with having limits on the use of the platform that exclude some speech that is legal.

Patreon is doing the same thing. They just draw the boundaries in a different place.

@ejworthing @Ratttz @pony @jd

Mastodon is slightly different as servers exist in many different countries and instance admins must comply with domestic law

In Europe some forms of speech (e.g some Nazi imagery in DE and some other countries) are *not* legal - also certain kinds of anime that are legal in Japan (hence widespread blocking of pawoo).

So boundaries vary from instance to instance (this is at least made transparent on Mastodon for those who read the info provided)

@vfrmedia @Ratttz @pony @jd

True. Some of the rules/guidelines on a lot of Mastodon instances aren't about legal compliance, though. They're about forming a friendly, welcoming community.

@ejworthing @Ratttz @pony @jd at least on European ones they seem to be a combination of both - which is no bad thing - it *is* a genuinely friendly community plus I don't have to feel paranoid about being on here like I would if was some shady forum on darknet constantly discussing subject/activities that *are* going to attract attention from feds etc..

@ejworthing @jd IGD did share doxx of some fascists. Personally, I'm fine with that, but they just posted a link to the article onto Twitter without any warning of what people were getting into or retweeting, and buried it at the bottom of the page.

I'm all for doxxing, harassing, and fucking up fascists, but people on our side need to know what they're getting into and when.